• BodomSlayer

    I have an idea. Since we refer to the Blues arena as the DrinkScotch center can we officially refer to them as the St. Louis Booze?

    Discuss amongst yourselves!

    • mazer_rackham

      Please no. I like booze.

    • M7

      The Snooze

    • bizarrohairhelmet

      The St. Louis Butt ooze?

      • Z-man19

        this also makes me ill

    • Sparky_The_Bard-barian

      It takes a team like the Blues to make me hate a place named the Drink Scotch Center.

  • MattC86

    Re: Bolland . . . I think we were harsh on the Rat just because we knew what he was capable of and were always so disappointed. Obviously it’s early (3 games is quite early to say how he brings something they don’t have, etc etc) but I think the Leafs and their fans really will love a lot of the things he does during the game and all the things we came to take for granted – defensive play, good work behind and around the net, etc.

    Look, we were never disappointed in Bolland as a 3rd or 4th string center, minus those regular season games where he didn’t show up. We were disappointed when we convinced ourselves he was going to be a 2nd line center with playmaking ability getting 50 assists a season. It may be awhile before Leaf fans and writers start poking holes in the guy. And I still miss him.

    • 10thMountainFire

      I really do miss the guy. His inconsistency during the regular season was very frustrating but there may be something to be said for the way Q used him here. I don’t know. But he is off to a great start in Toronto and I’m happy to see that he’s getting the attention he deserves.

    • ChicagoNativeSon

      Harsh on the Rat. Hard on the Beaver.

  • putmeinthemadhouse

    Al cimaglia says “a very good crawford would have saved that steen goal”

    I find it hard to fault the guy on a 3 on 1 with the only defender back sliding belly-down on the ice

    • 10thMountainFire

      Al Cimaglia sounds fuckin stupid.

      • bizarrohairhelmet

        he also smells, looks and presumably tastes and feels stupid.

      • MattC86

        Al writes like a moron, but I do think in this case he’s correct – Crow makes that save more often that not; he said so himself after the game. Was it a soft goal? No, but Steen just blew it by him. Corey would want that one back.

    • http://www.lotsofbutterplease.com/ I am not Chico Maki

      I’ve read a fair bit by Al in the past. When he writes “very good” he uses it as a synonym for “4 foot by 6 foot” … which, of course, makes that sentence unassailable.

    • laaarmer

      It was no longer a 3 on 1. Our little lazy fucker got back end covered 2 guys. Keith probably didn;t realize it, but there was no pass available to SHTEEN. Too bad. Good game. Bad outcome, but hey 2 PP goals.

      • laaarmer

        Seabrook just missed stopping the shot, Kaner out skated everybody. Keith did what he thought he had to do. Like I said, bod outcome to a pretty good game.

        • thepuckstopshere

          Yep, put a JM down. Hey, anyway Blues didn’t even sell out last night. Guess the ploy with out of towners buying tickets worked well!

        • bizarrohairhelmet

          Look at handbanana all up in their grills. Don’t think Kaner won’t go back and point that out to Duncs. How much better are the Hawks with Kaner defending on top of the other awesome stuff he does?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Well, they’re maybe $10 mil a year better. Dude is gonna make serious bank. He’s turning into Toews, Jr.

          • mad-hatter

            He’s not turning into Toews Jr. He’s turning into mutherfucking Patrick Kane. We may all weep now.

          • laaarmer

            This is a good argument. I think I remember there were similar arguments in the late 60′s early 70′s too.

          • mad-hatter

            That’s awfully prescient.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Prescient: 1000 points.

          • laaarmer

            You know what they say about people that use big words for big words sake.

          • 10thMountainFire

            They use big words?

          • laaarmer

            Sesquipedalian

          • 10thMountainFire

            Wow. You got me there. Wasn’t expecting that.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            Wasn’t that a book by that Hobbit fellar?

          • laaarmer

            He stole my Wheat Thins!

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            No, I’m pretty sure it’s a province in Canada.

            (now that’s gold)

          • lizmcneill

            I don’t think it’ll be quite that much, Kessel’s just after signing for 8M.

        • 10thMountainFire

          What a lazy fuck.

          • laaarmer

            Did you watch the replay of that goal? Kane is a line behind, and granted they slowed up so as not to go offsides, but he catches them and takes care of both. He is all in right now.

            Why would two Blues occupy the same spot? It’s because they are not as good a team as the beard sniffers think they are

          • 10thMountainFire

            Or… they just don’t have a Kane.

          • laaarmer

            Look, two Blues in the same spot allowing one guy to cover both. Hockey sense tells you not to do that. One of them should have been higher or lower, but they aren’t. Still, they scored and won, which will not be the case next time if they play like this.

          • 10thMountainFire

            You know, in a matter of 20 minutes less than 24 hours following this loss, I suddenly feel much, much better about this team.

          • laaarmer

            Not only are they in the same spot, but they got out hustled by PATRICK KANE! Not Toews, who is 3 steps behind, but PATRICK KANE. I can see getting beat by Kane, but until now, nobody would get outworked by Kane.
            Hey Cliff! Saad to the 1st and Bickell to the 3rd. Fuck the money.
            Kane Toews Saad 2016

          • 10thMountainFire

            You had me at ‘Bickell to the third, Saad to the first’. If only to see what Saad and Kane could do together.

            That might be spreading us thin but I like the idea for now.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Did Kane getting back and moving in front of those two force Steen to take that shot? Hmmmm.

          • laaarmer

            Keith forced the shot. If Keith had known Kane was back he may have taken Steens stick. Not a bad play by Keith, by any means. He did what he thought was right and trusted his goalie to make the relatively bad angle shot. Next time he makes the save and Seabrook scores in the slot.

          • 10thMountainFire

            But Steen also had no alternative because he likely glanced over and saw 88… forcing him to throw it on net.

          • laaarmer

            Keith had the pass blocked with the slide, which is what he is supposed to do on a 2 on 1 (you pray on the 3 on 1). Just an unfortunate goal. It doesn’t even go in clean, so the “He blew it past him” argument is false too. Crow made a mistake, but he’s still a good goalie.

          • 10thMountainFire

            I have no issue with Keith on that play whatsoever. If he manages to get a bigger piece, we aren’t even having this discussion.

            Crow? No, he sucks. That contract sucks. Trade him for Miller.

          • laaarmer

            Miller is good too

          • 10thMountainFire

            He’s the best goalie ever. If we had traded Kane for him, we would have won two Cups.

          • laaarmer

            If you could trade Crawford for MIller would you do it?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Are we considering contracts in this?

          • laaarmer

            You can consider whatever you want. Would you make that trade?

          • 10thMountainFire

            That’s a really challenging question. Miller has to be almost 33 or 34, right?

            I don’t know. You have a guy who is comfortable in our system, who has three years in it…

            Yet Miller can stand on his head for long periods and carry an entire team. He’s had a shitty go of it in recent years but he plays for a shitty team.

            You got me. I lean toward ‘yes’. But not definitively.

          • laaarmer

            I don’t know either. I lean toward a no, but if they threw in a center prospect and a draft, maybe

          • 10thMountainFire

            The age makes me think ‘no’. He’s got at least five years on Crow. I like where Crow is headed.

          • laaarmer

            Where is he headed?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Good question.

            I think what you see now is what you’re going to get with Crow. He’s not a top five netminder but he’s likely among the top 10 in most years. He does frustrate some with games where he faces a low amount of shots and lets 2-3 get by him but I think he proved in the playoffs last season that he’s capable of being the horse you can ride to a Cup. He may be an occasional Vezina candidate on a very, very good season but he’s not a perennial. He’s not Rinne or Lundqvist or Quick… but he fits. He’s capable of having 2-3 more in him with this team.

          • Why

            We might be at the point where we at least have to discuss him when we talk top 10 goalies in the league. That’s a huge improvement. I’m not sure the anyone could reasonably say that about Niemi the year he won the cup.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Yeah I don’t think you’ll find any of us regulars (who were over at SCH at the time) who would have claimed Nemo was top 10 that year. But Crow… he’s at least in the discussion.

          • Why

            It’s a good feeling and it’s one I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have expected to have a year ago.

          • 10thMountainFire

            I think Crow is destined to be one of those really, unexplainably under-appreciated Chicago stars. People just nit-pick the shit out of him.

            I guess it comes with the territory of playing such a high-profile position on a team full of all-stars and HoFers but still… dude takes an excruciatingly disproportionate amount of abuse from portions of the so-called ‘fan base’.

            Constructive, warranted criticism is one thing but some of the stuff tossed at Crow even after the Caps game was insane.

          • Why

            I always miss some of that. People were mad at Crawford after he outplayed Holtby and shut down a 5 on 3?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Yes.

            Just like when Rask gives up 6, Crow gives up 5 and it’s Crow that sucks.

          • Z-man19

            I’d take that trade, not fully aware of how long Miller has on his current contract, that might make a difference.

          • lizmcneill

            he’s in the final year and he’s, what, 33? so 5 years on Crow and then he’ll want term to resign with you. Nah, I’ll pass.

          • Why

            Yep, I’ll take a guy who I know can win the Cup over a guy with some recent question marks. Maybe Miller’s just having a tough go with a shitty team, but I don’t see any reason the Blackhawks would be the team that decided to pay to find out.

          • lizmcneill

            Yeah, we’re not actually playing fantasy hockey. Hockey players are not plug and play. The Pens traded for Iginla, Bowman traded for Zus.

          • Z-man19

            Yeah I’d need to have him under contract for at least another year

          • Z-man19

            beard sniffers? I’m physically ill now. I agree on Kane, he’s been really good

      • lizmcneill

        Black Magic eluded Keith too. I don’t think he or Crow realised that Steen was out of options to to anything but shoot.

        Trade Kaner, he’s too unexpectedly good!

  • M7

    I hope that Canada wears white helmets exclusively. The white helmet, red sweater combo will remind of the old ’87 Canada Cup uni’s… (they won’t do it, but I dream.). I like how after the ’84 Canada Cup (red helmets with red sweater) it was determined that they looked too Soviet. It’s a look USA has succesfully taken with the white lids and blue sweaters.
    Thumbs up for nostalgia (hell throw in the blue pants too…).

    • DJ

      Canada will wear black helmets, gloves, and pants.

      • M7

        Yeah… I know.
        I’d like white helmets, red/black gloves, and black pants with a large verticle white stripe. Subsitute the black for blue and they’d have the full nostalgic package – which is what they were going for with these sweaters (from what I can surmise). Why not go all the way?

        Edit: And junk those black sweaters.

        • bizarrohairhelmet

          While they’re at it, they should change their puffpaint piping to bronze.

          • http://www.lotsofbutterplease.com/ I am not Chico Maki

            Mod!!! Mod!!!! BAN!!!! Anyone there?? BANNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! NONSENSE! TROLL!

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            The Mods all agree with me.

          • http://www.lotsofbutterplease.com/ I am not Chico Maki

            Bully.

          • M7

            I’m quite sure they’ll finish somewhere between 1st and 7th.
            I thought the gold trim was only on the black sweater though?

  • Waylon

    always hilarious to see the beats start clutching their pearls so early in the season – yeah, it’s a ginormous “statement” game, and we’ve only got 5+ months to go. Time to press that panic button, you guys.

    • 10thMountainFire

      Toews does not push ‘panic’ buttons. He presses ‘awesome’ buttons.

    • Sparky_The_Bard-barian

      How do you have a statement game in game three? How do you have a statement game that’s undecided with thirty seconds left in regulation?

      • flahawkfan

        So you can call it a “statement game.” That’s why.

  • http://www.lotsofbutterplease.com/ I am not Chico Maki

    Joe, why no morning links about Alice Munro? This is even better than Canada Olympic gold.

    • Why

      Maybe it’s better than a gold medal in something like bobsledding.

      • chidiver

        What aboot curling?

        • Why

          I’m not the biggest curling fan but the family still huddles around the T.V. to watch the Scotties and the Brier. We never talked about Munro or Atwood. Other people are allowed to feel good about things and good on Munro but I’d prefer the curling medals. Still a huge accomplishment, though.

    • Why

      I just don’t think we’re going to trick anyone here, Chico.

      • http://www.lotsofbutterplease.com/ I am not Chico Maki

        My heart will stop, no question, in the Olympics, but for me today’s news was even bigger, for real for real. Hockey occupies my sport world almost entirely, but in my other non-committed-indian worlds, books and writers measure up even bigger. I’m skeptical about it myself, but it’s true.

        • Why

          Well, congrats to Munro and I’m not going to begrudge a person getting something they like. But I like our hockey players more than I like our writers. Fuck it, let’s just get both.

    • red palace

      I thought you’d like that. Along with Vollmann, she is my favorite living writer. Congrats Canada!

      • http://www.lotsofbutterplease.com/ I am not Chico Maki

        Vollmann makes me want to throw things at the wall, because it upsets me that sentences could be so perfect, one after the other. But ya, also Munro, almost the same thing, no words out of place, ever.

        • 1benmenno

          I haven’t read Vollmann yet. But Europe Central is on my list.

  • Sparky_The_Bard-barian

    I’m in my 50′s. Grew up in Florida. Moved to the Chicago area when I was 14. Discovered hockey in 1972 and fell in love watching Jerry West call Blackhawks games on WGN TV. Less than a decade ago I thought I’d never live long enough to see my boys in the Indianhead hoist Lord Stanley’s shot glass.

    So after the incredibly high highs and comparatively low lows (compared to the last few decades), in the words of Catherine Tate, “I ain’t bovvered.”

    Hangover, parity, blah blah blah…. It’s supposed to be impossible to repeat in the cap era. I ain’t gonna sweat the impossible. I’m just gonna enjoy the ride.

    • thepuckstopshere

      First year without Robert Marvin Hull!

    • DJ

      Jim West, not Jerry.

      • laaarmer

        Let him have his own thoughts!

        • 1benmenno

          I like the idea of Jerry West calling Blackhawks games.

          • flahawkfan

            All Blackhawks announcers would be required to wear a pin with his silhouette on it.

  • Sparky_The_Bard-barian

    Re Bolland. I recall the fall of 2010, when everyone thought Dustin Byfuglien was going to lead the Flames to glory. Big Buff made the all star team that year. Next year his picture was on a milk carton.

    • Accipiter

      Flames ?

      • Sparky_The_Bard-barian

        Sorry. I was in the Way Back machine with Mr Peabody.

        • DesertHawk

          He was selected in 2012 as well, but an injury prevented him from attending, he’s also one of the most likely locks for team USA… not sure what’s with the Buff hate…

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            Can he play on wing?

          • DesertHawk

            I think he showed that with us, I doubt Team USA will use him that way.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            I don’t want him on D, so if he’s gonna be on the team, 4th line bitches.

          • DesertHawk

            Hawks have seemed like the only team that was willing to use him as a PF… we’ll see what happens though. He’s not terrible at D either, he did fine for us there too, it just depends what the team wants from him. :shrug: He’s not Gretzky, but he’s not like Beach either. I mean he was a last round draft pick, I think he’s done pretty well for himself in the league.

          • Why

            That’s a no doubter. Whatever else happens, he was a key contributor on a Stanley Cup winning team. There are a lot of very good players who never got to say that.

    • 10thMountainFire

      That milk carton was on ESPN under the headline ‘Norris Trophy Candidates’.

  • mad-hatter

    Practice switch ups: Kruger on the third centering Saad and Shaw at WING. Nordstrom between Bollig and Smith. Khabi in tomorrow, and Q is hopeful Hossa gets in both games this weekend.

    • lizmcneill

      well that’s new. I am not sure I like that 4th line but the third should rock at everything but FOs.

      • laaarmer

        Can Perrault take draws for Kruger?

        • lizmcneill

          Can we put him in a #16 jersey and get him to speak with a Swedish accent?

  • 10thMountainFire

    Khabi in net v the Isles.

    • Z-man19

      let the controversy begin

      • 10thMountainFire

        I was just thinking that same thing. You’re… prescient.

        • Z-man19

          my prescience is fatuous

          • 1benmenno

            I’ll say.

        • laaarmer

          He’s Armenian

          • 10thMountainFire

            I’ve heard Nagorno-Karabakh is an explosively awesome tourist spot.

      • laaarmer

        1 out of every 4 puts him at 20 -21 games. Crawford plays 60. I think I like this idea.

        • 10thMountainFire

          People are already taking to the Facebooks and the Twitters saying Crow sucks.

          Got to love Chicago… where the most popular guy in the city is always the back-up QB on the Bears and the back-up goaltender on the Hawks.

          • laaarmer

            Or the next Cub rookie

          • 10thMountainFire

            Hahahahahaha

            Rizzo.
            Castro.

            It’s Bryant’s turn to crush their hopes.

          • laaarmer

            My memory is Bill Madlock (replacing Santo)

          • 10thMountainFire

            Kevin Orie.

            Jerome Walton.

            Dwight Smith.

            Mike Bielecki.

          • Fleshrifle

            Mike Harkey

            Felix Pie

            Corey Patterson…

          • 10thMountainFire

            This is such an awesome exercise….

          • Fleshrifle

            I need medication because of this exercise and the baseball and hockey scores in St.Louis last night

          • Preacher

            Bring in Kyle Orton. He’s got a winning record after all.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Kyle Orton’s neck beard wins Super Bowls.

          • DesertHawk

            This is why I let you guys filter the Twittars for me.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Remember these?

            Hasek v Belfour
            Waite v Belfour
            Hackett v Belfour

            And the immortal…

            Nemo v The Man Who Shall Not Be Named

          • DesertHawk

            Before my time old-timer :P I became a fan the year Cheli left. Belfour as I understand it was always a giant doucher to the backup.

          • 10thMountainFire

            I can empathize with him, though:

            Two Vezinas, two Jennings… could have actually won the Hart one season… and he had to constantly deal with management alluding to Hasek and Hackett being possible replacements. Being the hyper-competitor and super-sensitive guy Belfour was, he was angry that he had to consistently prove himself as the #1. That likely worked to his advantage and ours. Dude was absolute money.

            I think Eddie ranks with the great Hawk netminders of all-time. He may have not played his entire career here but he played a long enough chunk that he earned a #3 position behind Hall and Tony O.

          • DesertHawk

            Yeah, my Dad always liked him. I just can’t get behind being a doucher to your teammates… if management is insinuating stuff, that’s not the backup’s fault. I like the Crow approach a lot more. :D

          • 10thMountainFire

            Whatever his attitude (and it was poor at times) he’s certainly top 3 Hawks netminders of all time.

          • Why

            I remember a discussion about what Kane had to do to pass Roenick (I think he already has). What does Crawford have to do to pass the other three on your list (I think he might)?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Championships sure will help.

            I think you could make the case that winning the Vezina is more difficult now than it was back then, just given the parity in year-to-year competition for the trophy. No one expected Bobbo last year, right?

            If Crow manages to win 2 or 3 Cups, combine that with 300+ wins and 50 or so shutouts he definitely has to be in the conversation with those guys.

            I personally don’t see it but he showed last year that he’s capable of playing with the elite. Consistency over the next 2-3 years would vault him up in the conversation.

          • Fleshrifle

            Hold the fort for the length of the contract and don’t be the cause of losing 2-3 playoff series. He’s got a ring. Given this D, a decent save % over this time frame will give him plenty of wins. No need to be spectacular. Just more years of the same.

          • 1benmenno

            If you need a spectacular goalie, you’re probably not a championship team.

          • 10thMountainFire

            There is truth to this statement. But spectacular goaltending has carried teams to championships… Cam Ward comes to mind.

          • 1benmenno

            And Jonathan Quick, to some extent. I’ll have to look up how many Cup winning goalies also won the Vezina.

          • 10thMountainFire

            I don’t know. The Kings were pretty well-rounded in 2012. Quick definitely played spectacular.

          • 1benmenno

            That’s true. Can’t think of an example right now of another goalie who carried a team the way Ward did. Maybe because they’re so rare.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Belfour in Dallas?

          • Why

            I remember those teams being good. No doubt that Belfour was too but carried might be a stretch.

          • 1benmenno

            Didn’t they have Brett Hull?

          • Why

            Hull for sure on the cup win against Buffalo (skate in crease).

            I remember Modano, Hull and Niewendyk (sp?) off the top of my head. My guess is that a google search is going to reveal a few more guys that just have me nodding my head and going “that guy was good.”

          • 1benmenno

            I remember that goal. A whole controversy aroused because of the way the crease rule was being enforced.

          • Why

            Yeah. That was my fist image there when you mentioned Hull.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Verbeek?

          • 1benmenno

            Off-topic but did you know that the last time the Maple Leafs reached the playoffs before last season was when Ed Belfour was their backup?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Same year JR beat him on an OT goal?

          • 1benmenno
          • 10thMountainFire

            That’s the one.

          • Why

            Christ, I just looked that up. Verbeek was there. The number that jumps out at me is that Modano, Hull and Niewendyk had a combined 26 game winning goals that year. I have no idea if that number is even somewhat normal in context but it seems fucking insane at first glance.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Fuck Brett Hull.

          • 1benmenno

            Well, yes. But I stand by my statement.

          • Why

            Giguerre in 03 and Kippy in 04 were pretty outstanding but they fell short. Roy in 1993 springs immediately to mind but I could be misremembering that.

            But the bottom line is you probably don’t want the goalie to look he’s carrying you for 16 wins because you’re probably not going to get 16 wins if other guys don’t make plays. My guess is there is a lot more stories like Halak against Washington or Smith against Chicago if a person thought hard enough.

          • Z-man19

            You don’t think Quick carried LA? I don’t think they win without him IMO

          • 1benmenno

            That’s also true. (I feel like the rabbi in the Fiddler on The Roof)

          • Why

            I agree that they wouldn’t have won without him but that team throttled everybody for three rounds. Quick was the best player on the best team but I tend to equate “the goalie carried us” with “the goalie stole that one.” I don’t get there when I talk about that L.A. team.

          • Why

            Took a quick look at that. The Vezina, up until 81-82, was awarded for goals against (it basically used to be the Jennings). If I’m reading wikipedia right the guys who have won the award for best goalie and the cup are Smith in 1982, Fuhr in 1988, Brodeur in 2003 and Thomas in 2011. So we’re looking at it happening 4 times over a 20 period.

            I’m just not sure where this drives the point though.

          • 1benmenno

            I’m not sure either. But I wanted to find a measure for a goalie who was hot in the playoffs. But the Vezina was for GAA, not for playoff performance, or even regular season performance.

          • Why

            I’m honestly just wikipediaing the Vezina, but it looks like Vezina was just for goals against from 1946-1981 and was for GAA before that. I have my doubts whether or not there would be a big difference between GAA and GA prior to 1956.

            As for playoff performance, your best trophy might be the Conn Smythe but I get the feeling that a lot of goalies were “carried” (played very fucking good but not spectacularly) to Conn Smythes by good teams.

          • 10thMountainFire

            And others, like Crow, were likely jobbed out of it by stupid eastern writers.

            Just saying… fuck them.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            Actually, if you have a spectacular goalie (and a decent team), you might be a championship team.

            Even the most talented of teams almost always needs well above-par goaltending to win it all.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Are you speaking about a spectacular goaltender or spectacular goaltending (for the playoffs, for instance)?

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            I’ve posted the stats on this a few times in the past. Without looking it up, over the past 15 years SC winning goalies average around a .940 adjusted for era Sv%. Only 2 goalies have won the Cup with an adjusted Sv% under .925, Niemi (.910) and MAF (.908).

            Many average/below-average teams’ deficiencies have been masked by very good goaltending. And many good teams have been undone by poor goaltending.

            Just look at the 2010 Hawks. Easily, imo, the most talented team since the salary cap, yet they were only the 3rd seed. Why? Probably because their goaltending was 29th in the league.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Solid shit. Wow.

          • Why

            What’s an average “adjusted for era SV%”?

            I’m with you on the gist of this but the Hawks were a two seed that year and I’m not sure finishing a point behind San Jose was all on the goalies. And in the playoffs, they masked the 29th worst team save percentage in the league in part by stapling Huet to the bench (I don’t want to scroll down far enough to figure out where he finished in the regular season).

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            They had the 3rd best record, behind WAS and SJ. They should have been miles ahead of the rest of the league imo.
            And no, as you can see, Niemi wasn’t ‘that’ much better in the playoffs. .910 doesn’t get most teams out of the 1st round.
            Sv% has been increasing rapidly since the lockout, so in order to compare years/eras, you need to adjust accordingly.

          • Why

            I get why you’re doing that, I want to know what an “average” adjusted save percentage is (as in a number). If a guy put up a .910, where would he rank in the league in 2010?

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            A .910 in 2010 would be similar to a .900 in 2005-06 and to a .913 over the past couple of seasons.

            http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_SavePercentage.php

          • Why

            So looking at the link, Niemi would have been (ever so slightly) above average in save percentage for the 2010 playoffs? Or are you using regular season numbers?

            What I’m trying to figure out is what year is your base year (or more specifically what the average number is). If most guys that win the cup are around .940, what would the average goaltender put up in the same year? I’m assuming guys that won cups had high save percentages but how do they compare to the guys that didn’t? I get what you’re doing here, but I don’t have any context for the .910 or .940 “era adjusted save percentage”.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            My number is based on the last full season, 2012. Just look at goalie stats on NHL.com, make adjustments based of the previous link.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Everyone who fuckin bitches about Crow should be required to re-read your post.

          • DesertHawk

            Yay CROW!!!!

          • Why

            No doubt on the Crawford-Niemi thing. I liked last years team a lot but that 2010 team might have been the most underpaid bunch of fucking beauties of all time (highly paid NHL athlete division).

          • DesertHawk

            2010 Team, with 2013 tending…. :drools:

          • Why

            They’d have at least two cups in those two seasons.

          • 10thMountainFire

            No. Crow sucks. Get with the program.

          • DesertHawk

            Unpossible, I bought his jersey, I wouldn’t buy the jersey of a sucky player.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Well, you did.

          • DesertHawk

            I bought it 2 years ago too, talk about faith in a player.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Well you didn’t know two years ago that he would suck so bad.

            Seriously, glad you bought a sweater for a guy who is going to suck. All the time.

          • DesertHawk

            I’m so glad we haven’t really gotten spammed with that crowd yet. I imagine I’ll have to internet murder people by the end of the season.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Oh, it’s already started. After the Lightning game, dude pops up… commences to calling Crow overpaid.

            It was like clockwork.

          • DesertHawk

            Ah, but I avoided him (still haven’t read those GDTs), so for me there’s been none :D

          • 10thMountainFire

            A regular here does not like Crow’s deal but he’s cooler about it.

          • DesertHawk

            I know there’s a few regulars who don’t like it. But they are clearly wrong… so I don’t get too bent about it. Honestly at least we don’t have NYR’s GAA, right now.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Yeah. I’d like to see what these anti-Crow people say about Lundqvist.

          • DesertHawk

            AV’s doing a good job, I wonder how long he lasts.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Long enough to get fired.

          • DesertHawk

            Heh.

          • Why

            If a guy is playing so well in net that he’s spectacular, chances are your team is giving up too many shots. I agree with everything both you and 1benmenno wrote above.

          • DesertHawk

            I think when people say spectacular, they are envisioning like… Rockford making it to the NHL finals with an amazing goaltender.

          • Why

            That’s pretty close to true for me. I could be confusing “carried” with “spectacular” here with the way the thread is going but there’s a big difference between what Kippy and Halak were doing during those crazy runs and what Crawford was doing last year.

            That’s not a knock on Corey. He didn’t get the “opportunity” to do that because the team was so good. He just settled in and played the type of goal that made a lot of people think he was the best player during the playoffs for a team that won the Cup.

          • 1benmenno

            I agree that it’s a combination. Look at the Pens.

          • 1benmenno

            I’m older than you, so I’ll include Charlie Gardiner.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Ahead of Belfour?

          • 1benmenno

            Nope. But definitely top 5, because he helped win the first championship. And because he was a legendary character who died tragically within weeks of winning the cup. And because he’s from Winnipeg. With Belfour and Gardiner, we have two more proud Hawks from the province of Manitoba.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Toews?

          • 1benmenno

            Toews being only the latest Manitoban anointed to save the Blackhawks in their periods of direst need.

          • Z-man19

            And to think there could have been a Menno in a Hawks sweater

          • 1benmenno

            There already is–Toews! (Yes, I know his mom is French. But his dad is a Menno who works at the University of Manitoba in the physical plant.)

          • 1benmenno

            Hu-et the heck could you be referring to?

        • Z-man19

          Better than 50-50 or anything over 20 for the drunk guy

  • 10thMountainFire
    • lizmcneill

      I don’t like Thornton but yeah, leave the kid alone.

    • Z-man19

      If Pirri or Morin get up here and score four goals in one game , you will Thornton yourself

      • 10thMountainFire

        I wish to assert my fifth amendment privilege in refusing to respond to that statement.

        But I upboated it.

        • Z-man19

          Frankly, I don’t think you’d make it to goal 3

          • 10thMountainFire

            When Morin scored on his first shift after a call-up against Scum last season, I yelled so loud that I nearly sent Fort Bragg into panic.

          • Z-man19

            So you’re loud when you Thornton

          • 10thMountainFire

            I don’t know what you’re talking about but if there’s video that’s not me.

          • 1benmenno

            That’s what the mayor of Toronto keeps saying.

          • Z-man19

            Who else would have I love Hossa tattooed on their forehead and Pirri on one ass cheek and Morin on the other. If that’s not you, I’ve found you’re true love

          • 1benmenno

            What if it is him?

          • Z-man19

            He has some talents, I won’t lie to you

          • 10thMountainFire

            TWSS.

          • Z-man19

            I know, she says it on the video, holy shit that is you, well done sir

          • 1benmenno

            Well, XMF keeps telling us how in shape he is. Now you have evidence.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Round is a shape. I am not round. I’m just saying… round is a shape.

          • 1benmenno

            That’s what the Mayor of Toronto keeps saying.

          • 10thMountainFire

            I don’t know what you’re talking about. That isn’t me.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            Thorton hears a who?

        • bizarrohairhelmet

          I see no boats on your statement.

      • Fleshrifle

        I can almost hear Gene Honda over the P.A. t the UC “Pirri..5 Minutes for Thorntoning at 16:17″

        • Z-man19

          A minor for just the act, a major if you excrete a fluid

          • Fleshrifle

            Please…leave minors out of this.

          • 10thMountainFire

            This is spinning horribly out of control.

          • DesertHawk

            It is pretty horrible when it spins.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            You kids and your new-fangled Thortoning. What’s wrong with how they taught us in Catholic school?

          • 1benmenno

            I didn’t know Texas Prots went to Catholic school.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            Me thinks they doth protest too much.

          • 1benmenno

            Doth they really?

          • 10thMountainFire

            Aye. They doth.

          • 1benmenno

            As Michael Jordan would say: Just doth it.

          • Fleshrifle

            Hmmmm…..Doth Thortoning? A new Star Wars character or a venal sin?

          • 1benmenno

            A venal Star Wars character.

          • Z-man19

            Who sins

          • Fleshrifle

            People who can’t type Venial

          • 1benmenno

            That’s a Cardiniale sin.

          • Fleshrifle

            Jose Cardiniale…my favorite Cubbie….and yes he may have been a sinning Star Wars character (that Fro was out of this galaxy)

          • 1benmenno

            I don’t know how Cardenal kept his hat on. Maybe he had clips.

          • 1benmenno

            oops. I wayloned.

          • 10thMountainFire

            It’s like a laaarmer but not.

          • 1benmenno

            Like the old commercial:
            When you think it’s laaarmer but it’s not–it’s Way-lon.

          • 1benmenno

            Yes. Who sins.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            Wasn’t he Dothraki…because he hurt himself while Thortoning?

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            those dothbags

        • 10thMountainFire

          Coming from a guy named ‘FleshRifle’…

          • Z-man19

            Heh

  • Paul the Fossil

    This is interesting and reminds me of some discussions that keep recurring around here: “Here’s something on which both sides can agree: If you’re even vaguely interested in the ongoing debate over the future of hockey metrics, the 2013-14 Toronto Maple Leafs are the test case you’ve been waiting for.
    They are the canary in the advanced-stats mine shaft.”

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9799967/toronto-maple-leafs-advanced-stats

    • Why

      Loved reading that. I will complain until I’m blue in the face about the fact that Corsi/Fenwick aren’t possession stats but he did a very good job of outlining the arguments both sides were making. From what I can tell, a lot of the people that write the stats articles (as opposed to commenting on them) are starting to admit that all shots aren’t created equal (and something else should be looked at).

      • ChicagoNativeSon

        The two sources linked to in that article suggesting that “a lot of people that write stats articles (as opposed to commenting on them) are starting to admit…” are:

        A commenter (and Leafs fan) on HFBoards who claims he/she can simply tell by watching that the Leafs give up lower quality shots.

        A commenter on the Leafs NHL site blog whose argument right off the bat is that statheads are “lesser hockey minds. People who have clearly never played the game.”

        And lastly, NO ONE, at least not one single person I’ve ever encountered in person or print, even disputes that “all shots aren’t created equal.” This is the straw man wrench that some continually throw into the conversation in order to create smoke.

        • Why

          Actually, I probably overstated that. But when people say PDO is a measure of luck (and PDO is simply a measure of whether or not a shot goes in or not), they are saying that shots, in the macro, are created equally.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            In the macro, yes, they pretty much are. But PDO gets misused in my opinion, or at least misunderstood. And the reason is, is that all goalies are not created equal.

            A player/team may have a high PDO solely due to their tending. So in truth, they are indeed “lucky” when compared to other players/teams from a statistical standpoint. But on the other hand, some simply look at the high PDO and then dismiss many of the team’s/player’s stats, even though only a few should be discounted.

          • Why

            There we are. I think we’ve agreed on this before, but PDO is misused and misunderstood on a regular basis. I’m still of the view that certain players are going to drive up the shooting percentage of a team so we’re disagreeing there. But while a player might be lucky to have a good goaltender, I don’t see how that applies to a team. And you can drive up your team’s save percentage by clearing away rebounds, preventing odd man rushes and the like.

          • lizmcneill

            Goaltender development = crapshoot. Established good-to-elite NHL goalies = $$$$$$++. So yeah, in a way you can say that a team is lucky to have a good goaltender – buuut goalies are weird and a goaltender slump is going to affect the team more than any other single player.

            Based on their career %s, you’d expect the difference between having Rinne and Steve Mason in net to be 15 PDO points with the same on-ice sh%, say 990 versus 1005. And that could persist for a season or longer. Still doesn’t mean that a player with 1050 is going to stay that way.

          • Why

            I’m not willing to concede that bringing in or keeping good players is luck. That’s stretching the term for me. And there’s probably guys with a high PDO that have gotten lucky. Still though, somehow Crosby appears to have an on ice shooting percentage above league average every year he plays.

          • lizmcneill

            I was messing with the two meanings of luck which is where your problem seems to be. But look at Quick’s .902 last season, is that lack of skill or luck?

            Someone did an article on the on-ice sh% which I can’t find right now, bah. There’s about 12 guys in the league that have an elevated on-ice sh% that is provably not variance – Crosby, Honk&Donk, Stamkos/St Louis, Best Captain, plus a few “and a dude”s (the Burrowses and Dupuises). The number of guys in the league that are capable of driving the sh% are literally a handful. Even on their teams there’s so much noise it doesn’t make that much difference – Chicago has been round about league average except for last year when it was 9%ish. Toronto’s was like 10.6% which was the second highest since the previous lockout. It’s not going to stay up there forever.

          • Why

            I didn’t see that article. But how about this one:

            http://hockeyanalysis.com/2012/04/19/on-ice-shooting-percentage-is-sustainable/

            I can’t speak to the methodology, but if true, the article seems to directly refute your point.

          • lizmcneill

            Those are the guys I listed? I forgot Tanguay and Horton.

            And this is on-ice, not team sh%. We have Toews, but we also had Frogger, Fro and Bollig, none of whom can buy a goal (but we’ve upgraded to Goallig, things will be better now!)
            Sure you could sustain elevated sh% by filling your team with elite-shooting forwards, but this is a salary-capped league and it’s a lot easier to push up your shot differential via coaching, good cheap depth and 2-way players.

          • Why

            Look closer. I’m referring to the stuff starting at this paragraph:

            I now have 5 years of on-ice data on stats.hockeyanalysis.com so I thought I would take a look at how sustainable shooting percentage is using that data. To do this I took all forwards with 350 minutes of 5v5 zone start adjusted ice time in each of the past 5 years and took the first 3 years of the data (2007-08 through 2009-10) to predict the final 2 years of data (2010-11 and 2011-12). This means we used at least 1050 minutes of data over 3 seasons to predict at least 700 minutes of data over 2 seasons. The following chart shows the results for on-ice shooting percentage.

            And I’m not suggesting we only look at shooting percentage. I’m saying this paragraph had me applauding, even if I’m not sure on the goals scored part:

            Of course, I would never suggest we use shooting percentage as a player evaluation tool, just as I don’t suggest we use fenwick as a player evaluation tool. Both are sustainable, both can be used as predictors of future success, and both are true player skills, but the best predictor of future goal scoring is past goal scoring, as evidenced by the following chart.

          • lizmcneill

            But weren’t we talking about team sh% over a lockout season? This is talking about how predictive 3 years’ worth of goal data is at a line level. I don’t think anyone ever argued that the difference in goals between Toews and Kruger’s line is purely luck and opportunity.

          • Why

            When people only use shot counting data and ignore shooting percentage rates (calling them luck or PDO), they are saying that the difference between goals on Toews’s and Kruger’s line is purely a difference between luck and opportunity (which is called Fenwick or a skill).

            With Toronto, we don’t have enough data (and with player turnover, probably won’t ever get enough data). That doesn’t mean the data we have should be ignored or simply dismissed as luck.

          • lizmcneill

            I was using opportunity to mean TOI. Toews is a Fenwick beast as well as a elite shooter so he wins in both aspects. Looking at shot metrics is a counter to the media/meatball tendency to react wildly to brief streakiness. “I didn’t suddenly become a bad hockey player,” for example.

            Anyways, the question is “over 48 games, were the Leafs good, or lucky?” (bear in mind that it’s not all Kessel and JVR, this is a team that ices 2 forwards who are arguably more useless than Bollig *simultaneously*)
            For what it’s worth (not a lot), this year they are shooting just about league average but their shots for is improved, and they still give up a miserable amount but Bernier is ridiculously hot – so they’re winning.

          • Why

            It’s totally true that players can go through scoring slumps while playing well. What I don’t get behind is the idea that shot counting stats are a metric that determines on their own whether a player or team is “playing well.”

            Bernier plays for that team, same as Kessel does. But even if you discount goaltending, they curb stomped Nashville last night and it looked to me like they were creating better chances. Sustainable with low shot rates? Maybe not but that wasn’t a “lucky win”, at least as I understand the term.

          • lizmcneill

            You miss 10% of the shots you don’t take, and all that. Giving up 10 or so more than you take in each game is playing with fire. Bernier is posting .974 right now. That’s going to come down.

          • Why

            For sure. But in single game levels, they will destroy teams if they can keep creating chances at that level (they probably won’t, but they can come down a notch and still be very dangerous). I know what the stats say over the course of a season but if they play that game last night 100 times with the only difference being whether the shots that were taken go in or not, Toronto wins at least 80 of them.

        • Why

          And I should have been more specific that I wasn’t referring to the article. Here’s an example:

          http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/02/27/the-declining-value-of-fenwickcorsi-with-increased-sample-size/

          I should be clearer at points. I hate Fenwick/Corsi, especially when they are used as primary player evaluation tools.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            Well that link is common sense, no? (I only read the title since the topic has been known/discussed for a number of years) Fenwick and Corsi obviously become less important/predictive than goals as the sample size grows.

            In a game, or even season, goals are a rare event and therefore the sample size leaves much to be desired. But when you look at a very large sample size, goals are obviously going to be subject to less randomness. So it makes sense that goals would be the best predictor of goals.

            The article has nothing to do with shot quality. Not sure where you drew that parallel?

          • Why

            The bigger problem is in the first chart. Fenwick isn’t even very predictive of itself as sample size grows. And there’s comments there that suggest a person needs a 144 game sample size before drawing conclusions.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            The author doesn’t state what Fenwick he is using: overall, close, tied? That right there is likely the problem.

          • Why

            You’re going to have a hard time convincing me that Fenwick tied is anything more than an oddity. I have a very hard time believing we should just discount all data when a team is leading or behind.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            Because a very good team could have a worse overall Fenwick than a team that is just slightly above average, due to score bias. Therefore overall Fenwick won’t tell you much.

          • Why

            In that case, you’d need some sort of adjusted Fenwick before I’d really start caring about that stat. I get why overall Fenwick doesn’t tell a person much but Fenwick tied still throws out how guys play in a one goal game. And Fenwick close is going to get somewhat butchered by score effects.

          • lizmcneill

            Close is tied or within one goal in the first and second. I don’t think you see too many teams going into defensive collapse to defend a 1-goal lead in the second.

          • bizarrohairhelmet

            New Jersey strives to be an outlier in just about everything.

          • lizmcneill

            bwhahahahahahhaha. The 2013 Devils were the textbook example of how to win at facystats but still suuuuuck (continue to insist that Brodeur is a starting goaltender, and not have any forwards that can actually put the puck in the net)

          • Why

            Thanks for correcting me on the definitions there. So Fenwick close is going to throw out all data where a team is up a goal or down a goal in the third?

            I get that argument, and intuitively it makes sense but a team down one goal tends to play better Fenwick (53.9% appears to be league average). I doubt that it all results in the third period, but maybe:

            http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2012/1/23/2722089/score-adjusted-fenwick

          • lizmcneill

            Yep. So Fenwick Tied removes all the score bias but has a worse signal/noise because of the smaller sample – it’s like why there is Corsi and Fenwick, they are useful at different sample sizes.

          • Why

            What you call “score bias”, I call playing in a one goal game in the third period. I care how hockey players perform in those situations and am especially distrustful of that stat.

          • lizmcneill

            Sites also publish plain 5on5 stats. It’s not not caring how they play with a lead (if they perform badly the score will revert to tied) it’s that it’s a different situation, the same reason PP and PK stats are listed separately.

          • Why

            Right, but you’re not measuring what players do to lose, extend, or keep a lead with that stat. I don’t get the appeal of just throwing out that data or diminishing its importance.

        • bizarrohairhelmet

          We’re never going to achieve the Grand Unified Statistic of Hockey.

          • Why

            I think that’s a good thing.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Dr. Brian Greene continues his work.

            String theory will lead us. Put your head down and keep pushing.

          • ChicagoNativeSon

            I’m GUSHing

        • Why

          I’m trying the triple post rather than edit, but to really drive the point home and connect it to the article, when people say “Toronto is not winning at Fenwick and therefore must be getting lucky to win”, people are stating that a stat that considers all shots to be equal also measures how well a team is playing.

  • VanDorp’sMullet

    Wow. Ducks up 6-0 on the Rangers in the 2nd. AV has really made a strong impact on that Rangers team I see.

    • 10thMountainFire

      Hahahahaha I love it.

      • VanDorp’sMullet

        LOL. Asham got 2 for unsportsmanlike conduct for taking off his helmet before a fight, then Dorsett trips Allen, goes after him and gets a 4 minute penalty for tripping and instigating along with a 10 min. misconduct. Indeed, AV has brought the stupid with him.

        • 10thMountainFire

          NY is going to destroy him.

          Then he’ll accuse the people of NY of using their top PP line on him and running up the score to force him out of town.

          • VanDorp’sMullet

            Gonna be fun to watch that unravel. In fact, it already is fun. What was that SJ score the other day?

          • 10thMountainFire

            9-2.

            Three field goals.

          • DesertHawk

            And New York got a safety right? :testing football knowledge, gleaned from others:

          • 10thMountainFire

            You pass.

          • DesertHawk

            Wooo! I shall add it to my repertoire of things that I use to not be accused of being “Non-American” when in social settings.

          • 1benmenno

            You’re being “Non-Canadian” by not comparing the safety in the NFL with the rouge in CFL.

          • Why

            He’s American. I would also not watch CFL football if I was American.

          • 1benmenno

            Homer Simpson prefers church over football so much he’ll watch the CFL draft on a Sunday morning.

          • Why

            No person, fictional or otherwise, should watch the CFL draft unless they are getting paid or one of their family members are involved.

          • 10thMountainFire

            Does St. Louis still have a team?
            No, they moved to Phoenix.

          • DesertHawk

            I can’t stand football, it falls prey to the same thing most sports do, way too much fucking down time. Jokingly while in the military I was always accused of being unAmerican, and usually the country of choice for where I should reside was Canada. :D Canada seems nice, the weather is more in line with what I favor. But I’ll be damned if my ‘Merica-ness won’t let me really consider living somewhere else. I’m the most rabidly patriotic American, with the most un-American interests apparently :D

          • Why

            Fair enough, man. Selfishly, I’m usually here to talk hockey. You having un-American interests makes that easier. Works for me.

          • DesertHawk

            The fact that Hockey, is such an integral part of Canada, is a huge part of the appeal. I love my country so much, and aspects of the last 15 years or so have really pained me as I’ve grown, but I can’t comprehend leaving. If I ever did that, Canada would be right at the top of the list. Honestly part of the reason I want to live further north, besides hating warm weather, is that I’d be closer to the border and it’d be easier to make jaunts to visit you crazy folks up there.

          • 1benmenno

            Plus you could get Montreal bagels fresh instead of mailed to you.

          • DesertHawk

            :D